More FN57 Scare Tactics and a Useful Handgun Ban
Despite BATFE reassurances (which I documented), the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has pressed their attack on the FN 5.7 pistol.
“We are very grateful to Senators Lautenberg, Corzine and Schumer and Congressman Eliot Engel for introducing legislation in the Senate and the House of Representatives to outlaw this weapon,” said Michael Barnes, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March. “This weapon is a tragedy waiting to happen.”
Ah, the usual suspects for pro-hoplophobic legislation arrived for roll call. It's good to see that they can be counted on to trot out the latest talking points of the gun control lobby. So much for Democrats trying to distance themselves from gun control.
The bill is S. 527 (The Protect Law Enforcement Armor (PLEA) Act), but it is not yet available on the record at the Library of Congress. Lautenberg cites Hillary Clinton as a co-sponsor even if the Brady Campaign does not.
Lautenberg claims the gun was designed to penetrate vests worn by police. That's an overstatement. The gun, and the companion submachine gun, were designed for use by SWAT teams for going up against criminals wearing vests. They focused on capacity and penetration capability. It is primarily marketed to police. The website cited as bragging about the firearm's potential is intended for police.
The bill has some interesting “findings:”
Sec 2.(a)(3) The Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS192 cartridges are capable of penetrating level IIA armor. The manufacturer advertises that ammunition fired from the Five-seveN will perforate 48 layers of Kevlar up to 200 meters and that the ammunition travels at 2100 feet per second.
True enough, but you shouldn't be able to get SS192 ammunition in the United States.
Sec 2.(a)(4) The Five-seveN Pistol, and similar handguns designed to use ammunition capable of penetrating body armor, pose a devastating threat to law enforcement.
Here it comes. Any handgun capable of defeating IIA armor is now under attack… Now, what do we know also penetrates IIA? 9mm FMJ at speeds greater than 1100fps, .357 Magnum at speeds greater than 1250fps, .44 Magnum, .50AE, .500 S&W Magnum, etc. etc.
IIA is the minimum recommended level of body armor if you are going to bother wearing it. It'll stop 00 buckshot, and a lot of other little things, but not 9mm Silvertips, for example. It is definitely not what you wear if you're facing rifle or submachine gun rounds. SS192 is a submachine gun round.
Okay, what's the purpose of S. 527?
Sec 2.(b) Purpose.—The purpose of this Act is to protect the Nation's law enforcement officers by— (1) testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor; and (2) prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase by civilians of the Five-seveN Pistol, ammunition for such pistol, or any other handgun that uses ammunition found to be capable of penetrating body armor.
Welcome to the Lautenberg ban on most guns acceptable for concealed carry. The rest of the bill modifies the pre-existing definition of armor piercing ammunition definition and bans any pistol that can fire ammunition determined to be armor piercing under this new definition.
Let's go back to the Brady Campaign press release:
“Instead of focusing on the threat to law enforcement caused by public sales of this cop killer gun, many in Congress are instead trying to pass legislation that would immunize the gun's manufacturer from lawsuits,” Barnes said. “That's insane.”
Unlike law enforcement deaths as a result of this pistol, the attempts of hoplophobes to sue legitimate gun manufacturers out of business are persistent, despite the high frequency of such lawsuits getting thrown out of the courts. Even if the manufacturers win the suits, they are out a lot of money.
So, the response to this should be “Pot. Kettle. Black.”
The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) issued an alert to all its law enforcement personnel in November, warning that the SS192 ammunition designed for the gun penetrated body armor. “Sales of this weapon in the U.S. have increased tremendously according to the manufacturer,” the alert stated.
SS192 ammunition is not available for sale in the United States. Only SS196 is available. Sales of the FN Five-SeveN pistol to private citizens may have increased tremendously (from zero sales before the gun was available to distributors), but sales to criminals are still illegal.
Finally, we have this gem:
The National Rifle Association has defended the weapon and questioned the Brady Campaign's testing. In response to their comments, Barnes today suggested that the NRA's President, Wayne LaPierre, “put on a bullet proof vest, and we'll fire the weapon at him, and see what happens. He should put his body where his mouth is.”
I wonder who would beg the most for that video? Not only is the vest not specified, neither is the ammunition or how they might fire it. Knowing what we do about the firearms knowledge of this group, they'd likely shoot for the head and claim the pistol defeated the vest.
The NRA responded:
It is pathetic to see the gun control lobby make hysterical statements to resurrect their failed political agenda. According to the BATFE, this armor-piercing ammunition is only available to the military and police. The Brady Campaign continues to deceive the American people in their effort to ban firearm ownership by all law-abiding Americans.
I'm sure I'll get another drive-by “redneck” comment for this post, but they are sure fun to write.
Update: Alphecca has gathered some quotes on this gun ban, but didn't notice that Lautenberg is trying to ban every handgun that can penetrate a IIA vest.
Posted Friday, Mar 4 2005 04:31 PM
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There are 15 comments on this entry.
Democrates realize they lost ground with the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) and are trying to pass meaningless legislation like the above to get the liberals off their backs and nothing more.
Although this bill looks good on paper, we know what this means.
"You can have a gun, just as long as it doesn't look evil"
And then the deffinition of evil gets more and more precise...and we loose more and more guns, and the Second Amendment gets pushed to the back of the constitution until only LEO and Military are concerned.
I will never get the understanding of democrates...why focus on dangerous guns instead of dangerious people?
Posted Sunday, Mar 13 2005 03:51 PM
Guns don't kill people..... It’s the bullet that someone fires. Be it a 22 or a fifty cal all bullets are potently deadly. If the bad guy can buy a bullet proof vest I want bullets that will go through that vest. Remember the Hollywood shoot out.
Posted Sunday, Mar 13 2005 03:52 PM
I just purchased the five-seven and ordered three boxes of ammo. When I received the ammo, they accidently sent the evil ss192 steel core rounds. I tried to order more but supplier said it was a glitch in their computer system.
I always purchase evil black rifles. Especially the ones that liberals target for a ban.
Posted Thursday, Mar 24 2005 08:27 PM
Ever get the feeling you've been trolled? I'm sorry, but I would not go on someone else's web site and admit to a crime.
Posted Thursday, Mar 24 2005 09:52 PM
I didn't commit a crime. It was sent to me from a wholesaler unknowingly. There was no request to send it back. I didn't want a new pistol without ammo. I'm not trolling.
Posted Thursday, Mar 24 2005 11:09 PM
Let's look at USC 18 291(a)(17):
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
What you have is steel-core ammunition, which is, by definition, armor-piercing ammunition.
The distributor broke USC 18 922(a)(8) when they sent you armor-piercing ammunition. I'm amazed they didn't want it back immediately. I'm amazed they didn't call BATFE, admit a mistake, and try to fix it.
It's not illegal for you to possess it, but it is illegal for them to send it to you. That's the crime you are admitting.
Posted Friday, Mar 25 2005 07:41 AM
I do understand what I have. When I ordered the pistol, I was concerned about the availability of the new rounds. I was expecting 196rds. I guess that I lucked out. Online private individuals are selling 50rds of 192 for about $85-100 a box, I only paid $35.
Posted Friday, Mar 25 2005 10:01 AM
If you received ss192, I do not believe you broke any laws. ss192 is not steel core, check it with a magnet. FN has stopped selling ss192 to the pulbic. The atf classified ss192 as non armor piercing, and I do not thing that they change it.
Posted Monday, Apr 18 2005 06:53 PM
Ok, after coming across this site and reading about the Five-seveN and its "evil" ammo, I must correct you people. You are INNCORRECT about the SS192 ammo, the SS192 has been ceased to be imported, but it IS NOT illegal, you have to do your homework. The SS190, and SS193 ammo, steel core armor peircing, and standard full metal jacket reseptively, are the illegal rounds. The SS192 ammo is labeled "training" ammo, and is a NON-expanding hollow-point that will penetrate a level IIA vest, but not a level II, IIIA, or anything better. Almost ALL law enforcement know that IIA is inefective and use a IIIA vest. Just thought I'd clear that up.
Posted Wednesday, Jun 29 2005 06:28 AM
It's rediculous that the SS192 rounds are no longer being produced because of the complaining of a few anti-gun wussy liberals. Lets just ban all gun and ammunition sales and require everyone that owns any type of handgun, rifle or shotgun to turn in their weapons to the government. That would make the anti-gun liberals happy for maybe 2 weeks - that is until their friends and loved ones start to become victims of gun related crimes. Criminals would love a country wide gun ban because Criminals don't give a rip about laws, that's why they're called criminals! People that wish to take guns and specialized ammo out of the hands of law abiding citizens just don't seem to get it...It's not the gun that commits the crime, it's the person behind the gun.
Posted Thursday, Jul 7 2005 07:26 PM
I agree rodney, its the person behind the gun. all these politicians want to do is take away our right to posess firearms. i own 8 firearms. 5 handguns and 3 rifles, none of them have ever harmed or killed anyone. thats because they are mine and im not a criminal.
but im willing to give up my guns, only if the government would provide me with a police officer that would go with me werever i go, stay in my home and protect me and my family when we are sleeping at night.
that would be nice, police protection 24/7 for all law abiding citizens. at not cost to the consumer.
id go for it, wouldnt you.
Posted Thursday, Oct 13 2005 10:01 AM
i feel that FN has been developing some of the most bleeding edge techno guns to date, and should not be punished for such advanced innovations. The consumers of these terrific weapon systems from FN are the same consumers of every weapon system. as technology advances, so does the requirement to advance your own self defense regiment. This ban proposal is pathetic and is far too vague. a simple gesture to properly test ordinance before domestic sale is critical, but an outright ban after the mistake is moronic. vest technology is advancing, civilian criminal tech advances are as well, just be up to date, fund the local police properly, and simply be aware. besides, whoever shoots first and hits will win the battle, regardless of what kind of vest one may have on. i assure getting hit with .45 acp will take the fight out of you, regardless of vest penetration.
Posted Monday, Oct 31 2005 07:05 PM
AMEN to that brother. I only own 5 firearms which is enough for me. The streets we live in today have changed so much. A person can't even walk down his own street at night without looking over his shoulder. Here in Philadelphia I carry two Glock 21 (.45 auto) almost everywhere I go. There are so many jobs being lost, times are getting hard and you never know who your going to run into these days. A person with nothing to lose defiantly shouldn't have a gun roaming the streets. Young kids will shoot you without a second thought to get in a gang or to prove a point to someone that they can kill someone. I'm not about to be a victim to these streets. I'll appose any gun ban they throw my way.
Posted Sunday, Nov 6 2005 02:21 PM
I always love seeing these gun control bills, because if criminals obeyed them we would not have to call them criminals.
Chris Rock has it right. Give everyone a gun --control the bullets.
Posted Saturday, Dec 31 2005 10:39 AM
A ban on armor piercing ammuniton is a ban on the second ammendment.
I own guns for defence. Although I have been hunting a number of times, hunting is not the reason that the second ammendment was put into the Bill of Rights. It was purposefully placed there to create a roadblock in the path to dictatorship. Our founding fathers have always considered a potential threat to our freedoms from our own government. The police are not always the defenders of all rights. Many times it's the police that wind up violating our rights(it happens all over the world). That's why we have judges and defense lawyers and internal affairs officers. I hope the day never comes when that system of judges and lawyers becomes ineffective. While I sincerely hope such a threat never appears, it is the responsibility of every citizen to ensure the enforcement of the Bill of Rights by force if necessary. If you are going to ban all ammunition that is capable of penetrating the body armor worn by the military and police, you are negating the purpose of the second amendment and the intent of it's authors.
Posted Monday, Jun 12 2006 09:35 PM